10-10-2020, 04:16 PM
Јутјуб канал World War 2 који се у реалном времену бави Другим светским ратом скоро је објавио овај видео о отмору и колаборацији на простору окупиране Југославије.
Међутим, случајно или намерно направили су доста грешака у видеу и/или су одређене чињенице просто изоставили као "небитне":
-партизане су назвали мултиетничким покретом,
-Четнике су назвали српским националистичким покретом иако су се ови као и партизани представљали као југословенски,
-иако су оба порета била југословенска, нису казали да су до 1943. највећи проценат у оба чинили Срби, те под предпоставком мултиетничких партизана и српских четника гладаоци стичу одређену слику,
-Краљевску владу у егзилу назвали су српском, а не југословенском,
-фото грешка - место слике Милана Недића, ставише слику Милутина Недића (баш је тешко пронаћи на интернету Миланову слику, а има их доста и то баш у униформи).
У коментарима има доста замерки и корекција, тако је био и један добар детаљан коментар на ову тему извесног Душана Банич(ћ)евића и прекопираћу га у целости, у оригиналу:
-Цитат: "Few notes about these two movements:
1. Both of these movements especially in first years were dominantly composed of Serbs, even Yugoslav Partisans (There are many reasons why, but I will stick just to one very obvious and practical). Ustaše has carried out a terrible terror in Croatia, and Serbs were just put to choice to be slaughtered or killed by Ustaše in their house, church or concentration camps or to go in woods and fight and also probably be killed. That is just one of the most obvious reasons why Serbs also were composed of an absolute majority in the Partisan movement till 1943. Until the fall of Mussolini's Italy in 43' Serbs composed about from 80% to somewhere 90% of partisans. Only after of fall of Italy significant portion of Croats joined to partisans, and still at the end of the war in 1945, Serbs were composing roughly about 59% of all fighters. If you were Croat on the other hand even if you weren't fascist you could live pretty normal if you minded your business and looked away on what Ustaše was doing in front of you. (It is not moral, but Croats were not existentially threatened than, on villages was slightly different though, because of terrible ethnic conflicts and acts of revenge of both sides).
2. During WWII parallel with the German occupation, from late 1941, we have also an outbreak of brutal civil war, very similar to one in Russia/Soviet Union in 1917 between Communist and anti-communist (simplified ofc). And Chetniks from my perspective were not nearly organized as partisans, they had bad tactics and priorities. Also, the Chetniks movement was not a monolith, and you even had fought within Cetnik movements, also many "formally Chetniks fighters, weren't respecting the chain of command and you have a bunch of local "warlords" that were committing various war crimes.
One of the examples of how Chetnicks was heterogeneous was the fight between Draza Mihajlovic and Kosta Pecanac and eventually, Draza's forces killed the Kosta Pecanac and their forces.
3. Main problem with the interpretation of these groups and events at least in my home country is that Communist won that civil war partially with occupation (they didn't fight only for liberation but they were conducting also a communist revolution). In that bloody war (now I'm talking about the war between Communist and Royalist) both of sides were committing brutal war crimes, purges and killing. But Communists won the war, and they become "good guys" and Chetniks or various rolayist groups crazy fascists. To be clear Chetniks was fighting also against different Bosniaks forces and not just Bosniaks forces BUT also against Muslim civilians to be fully correct and they were committed also many war crimes (also some of these Bosnian forces were in the 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS "Handschar") The biggest brain fuck is that you had a civil war within the Serbs, parallel to liberation war, but we also had national conflicts between Serbs and Croats, Serbs and Muslims, some of them was fascist some of them just nationalist, just big big mess, like the civil war in Russia after the WWI where we have literally 20 sides on the field.
4. Communist ( or to say more correctly elite of Communist Party of Yugoslavia) was of Bolshevik mindset, and they didn't really care about individual lives and casualties, they "were conducting great revolution, and revolution is more valuable than any individual life, or destiny) Because of that they didn't have problems with German reprisals in Serbia because they knew that these measures will just increase the inflow of desperate people to guerilla fight). Like you said just 25.000 Serbs died in two months because of reprisals, but these are somehow also the reason for the downfall of the Chetniks movement because they were too passive and in their priorities list Communists sadly were in first position and Germans only in second.
5. I'm personally not a sympathizer of any of these movements, and it is very tricky, but Partisans were more concrete in a fight, and they did not cooperate directly or indirectly with the Germans and because of that, they gained more support from local peasants and eventually grew to the only significant force in that region. My personal opinion about Chetnciks is if the bloody civil war was inevitable than they should wait and fights more openly against the Germans (and not use Germans as a medium for the destruction of Communist) and then when Germans were expelled, they could fight if they wanted against their "brothers" communist for power. But in these times they were too reluctant and unorganized and without clear tactics and strategy in comparison to the other side.
6. Operation Halyard is just one of the examples of "passive" Chetnick resistance where they saved more than 500 US pilots behind German lines.
7. Chetniks in any case was NOT the SAME THING or even close to the Ustaše movement, the only thing that unites them is that both of these movements were enemies of Tito's Partisans (At least in Chetniks case majority of war). It is very important to people know that because Communist propaganda after the war was very strong, in equalization of the quilt. And you have tons of arguments to oppose this propaganda.
Firstly, Chetniks were a whole time in the "woods" and out of towns, and they are guerrilla force compared to the Ustase regime. They don't have state or institutions, racial laws, contraction camps, aviation, cities, full organized army, assembly, or any of these things. On the other side, the Independent State of Croatia is state in full capacity (besides foreign policy) and they literally can do whatever they want without any resistance for 4 years. Ustase also was fascist even before the war, they developed their anti-semitic and anti-Serbian ideology for a long time, and they were the first and last ally of Hitler until the last days of the war. On the other side, Chetniks were poorly assembled leftovers of the Royal army, without a clear ideology, plan, tactics, and pretty much throughout the whole war, they don't have an initiative like Communists but they react (and I would say react bad) on events on the field. They were committing war crimes like every side in civil war or any war, they were also partially collaborated with the Germans (which was a very bad idea, even though, they thought that they will take advantage of Germans and not Germans of them) but in any case, they are not even similar to Ustase movement." - крај цитата. Нисам имао времена да узмем да преведем на српски, није ни мој енглески нешто добар.
И на крају, на једну моју исправку (замерку) која еј гласила да нису споменули први ослобођени град Лозницу, добијем апсурдан одговор да је Ужице прва ослобођена територија, а након тога један врло безобразан коментар где човек који стоји иза слике тог канала на основу моје замерке говори како смо ми (Срби) "етнички изузетни" и мислимо да нико осим "нашег народа" не сме да с ебави нашом историјом и како је Лозница само град и околина, док је Ужице "територија".
Па ваљда је и Ужичка република настала тако што су се ослобађали прво делови те "територије" па је успостављена контрола над том "територијом"?
![[Слика: Opera-Snapshot-2020-10-10-114918-www-youtube-com.png]](https://i.postimg.cc/BQ1jN6BP/Opera-Snapshot-2020-10-10-114918-www-youtube-com.png)
Заиста нисам очекивао овакву дрскост од канала који себе представља историјским и научним.
Био сам слободан па сам им дао један, по мом мишљењу, леп одговор, ваљда довољно дрзак као њихов претходни.
![[Слика: Opera-Snapshot-2020-10-10-160548-www-youtube-com.png]](https://i.postimg.cc/HkF3p7Rt/Opera-Snapshot-2020-10-10-160548-www-youtube-com.png)
Што би рекао један наш историчар и политиколог: "Не дозовиле пуким чињеницама да стану на пут вашој машти", ја бих променио у "вашој интерпретацији историје".
Да се разумемо; по мом мишљењу видео је генерално добар, али за неке људе који себе представљају као историчарима који се озбиљно баве темом коју се баве, никако нису себи смели да дозволе овакве грешке. Једна погрешна реч мења читаво значење целе реченице. Мислим, каква "српска" влада у егзилу!? Боже свашта!
П.С. Опет се извињавам због енглеског језика, али мислим да сма набројао све грешке које су мени запале за око. Што се енглеског тиче, Гугл преводилац је сада много бољи те ради детаљног разумевања пасуса по пасуса може бити од користи.
Међутим, случајно или намерно направили су доста грешака у видеу и/или су одређене чињенице просто изоставили као "небитне":
-партизане су назвали мултиетничким покретом,
-Четнике су назвали српским националистичким покретом иако су се ови као и партизани представљали као југословенски,
-иако су оба порета била југословенска, нису казали да су до 1943. највећи проценат у оба чинили Срби, те под предпоставком мултиетничких партизана и српских четника гладаоци стичу одређену слику,
-Краљевску владу у егзилу назвали су српском, а не југословенском,
-фото грешка - место слике Милана Недића, ставише слику Милутина Недића (баш је тешко пронаћи на интернету Миланову слику, а има их доста и то баш у униформи).
У коментарима има доста замерки и корекција, тако је био и један добар детаљан коментар на ову тему извесног Душана Банич(ћ)евића и прекопираћу га у целости, у оригиналу:
-Цитат: "Few notes about these two movements:
1. Both of these movements especially in first years were dominantly composed of Serbs, even Yugoslav Partisans (There are many reasons why, but I will stick just to one very obvious and practical). Ustaše has carried out a terrible terror in Croatia, and Serbs were just put to choice to be slaughtered or killed by Ustaše in their house, church or concentration camps or to go in woods and fight and also probably be killed. That is just one of the most obvious reasons why Serbs also were composed of an absolute majority in the Partisan movement till 1943. Until the fall of Mussolini's Italy in 43' Serbs composed about from 80% to somewhere 90% of partisans. Only after of fall of Italy significant portion of Croats joined to partisans, and still at the end of the war in 1945, Serbs were composing roughly about 59% of all fighters. If you were Croat on the other hand even if you weren't fascist you could live pretty normal if you minded your business and looked away on what Ustaše was doing in front of you. (It is not moral, but Croats were not existentially threatened than, on villages was slightly different though, because of terrible ethnic conflicts and acts of revenge of both sides).
2. During WWII parallel with the German occupation, from late 1941, we have also an outbreak of brutal civil war, very similar to one in Russia/Soviet Union in 1917 between Communist and anti-communist (simplified ofc). And Chetniks from my perspective were not nearly organized as partisans, they had bad tactics and priorities. Also, the Chetniks movement was not a monolith, and you even had fought within Cetnik movements, also many "formally Chetniks fighters, weren't respecting the chain of command and you have a bunch of local "warlords" that were committing various war crimes.
One of the examples of how Chetnicks was heterogeneous was the fight between Draza Mihajlovic and Kosta Pecanac and eventually, Draza's forces killed the Kosta Pecanac and their forces.
3. Main problem with the interpretation of these groups and events at least in my home country is that Communist won that civil war partially with occupation (they didn't fight only for liberation but they were conducting also a communist revolution). In that bloody war (now I'm talking about the war between Communist and Royalist) both of sides were committing brutal war crimes, purges and killing. But Communists won the war, and they become "good guys" and Chetniks or various rolayist groups crazy fascists. To be clear Chetniks was fighting also against different Bosniaks forces and not just Bosniaks forces BUT also against Muslim civilians to be fully correct and they were committed also many war crimes (also some of these Bosnian forces were in the 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS "Handschar") The biggest brain fuck is that you had a civil war within the Serbs, parallel to liberation war, but we also had national conflicts between Serbs and Croats, Serbs and Muslims, some of them was fascist some of them just nationalist, just big big mess, like the civil war in Russia after the WWI where we have literally 20 sides on the field.
4. Communist ( or to say more correctly elite of Communist Party of Yugoslavia) was of Bolshevik mindset, and they didn't really care about individual lives and casualties, they "were conducting great revolution, and revolution is more valuable than any individual life, or destiny) Because of that they didn't have problems with German reprisals in Serbia because they knew that these measures will just increase the inflow of desperate people to guerilla fight). Like you said just 25.000 Serbs died in two months because of reprisals, but these are somehow also the reason for the downfall of the Chetniks movement because they were too passive and in their priorities list Communists sadly were in first position and Germans only in second.
5. I'm personally not a sympathizer of any of these movements, and it is very tricky, but Partisans were more concrete in a fight, and they did not cooperate directly or indirectly with the Germans and because of that, they gained more support from local peasants and eventually grew to the only significant force in that region. My personal opinion about Chetnciks is if the bloody civil war was inevitable than they should wait and fights more openly against the Germans (and not use Germans as a medium for the destruction of Communist) and then when Germans were expelled, they could fight if they wanted against their "brothers" communist for power. But in these times they were too reluctant and unorganized and without clear tactics and strategy in comparison to the other side.
6. Operation Halyard is just one of the examples of "passive" Chetnick resistance where they saved more than 500 US pilots behind German lines.
7. Chetniks in any case was NOT the SAME THING or even close to the Ustaše movement, the only thing that unites them is that both of these movements were enemies of Tito's Partisans (At least in Chetniks case majority of war). It is very important to people know that because Communist propaganda after the war was very strong, in equalization of the quilt. And you have tons of arguments to oppose this propaganda.
Firstly, Chetniks were a whole time in the "woods" and out of towns, and they are guerrilla force compared to the Ustase regime. They don't have state or institutions, racial laws, contraction camps, aviation, cities, full organized army, assembly, or any of these things. On the other side, the Independent State of Croatia is state in full capacity (besides foreign policy) and they literally can do whatever they want without any resistance for 4 years. Ustase also was fascist even before the war, they developed their anti-semitic and anti-Serbian ideology for a long time, and they were the first and last ally of Hitler until the last days of the war. On the other side, Chetniks were poorly assembled leftovers of the Royal army, without a clear ideology, plan, tactics, and pretty much throughout the whole war, they don't have an initiative like Communists but they react (and I would say react bad) on events on the field. They were committing war crimes like every side in civil war or any war, they were also partially collaborated with the Germans (which was a very bad idea, even though, they thought that they will take advantage of Germans and not Germans of them) but in any case, they are not even similar to Ustase movement." - крај цитата. Нисам имао времена да узмем да преведем на српски, није ни мој енглески нешто добар.
И на крају, на једну моју исправку (замерку) која еј гласила да нису споменули први ослобођени град Лозницу, добијем апсурдан одговор да је Ужице прва ослобођена територија, а након тога један врло безобразан коментар где човек који стоји иза слике тог канала на основу моје замерке говори како смо ми (Срби) "етнички изузетни" и мислимо да нико осим "нашег народа" не сме да с ебави нашом историјом и како је Лозница само град и околина, док је Ужице "територија".
Па ваљда је и Ужичка република настала тако што су се ослобађали прво делови те "територије" па је успостављена контрола над том "територијом"?
Заиста нисам очекивао овакву дрскост од канала који себе представља историјским и научним.
Био сам слободан па сам им дао један, по мом мишљењу, леп одговор, ваљда довољно дрзак као њихов претходни.
Што би рекао један наш историчар и политиколог: "Не дозовиле пуким чињеницама да стану на пут вашој машти", ја бих променио у "вашој интерпретацији историје".
Да се разумемо; по мом мишљењу видео је генерално добар, али за неке људе који себе представљају као историчарима који се озбиљно баве темом коју се баве, никако нису себи смели да дозволе овакве грешке. Једна погрешна реч мења читаво значење целе реченице. Мислим, каква "српска" влада у егзилу!? Боже свашта!
П.С. Опет се извињавам због енглеског језика, али мислим да сма набројао све грешке које су мени запале за око. Што се енглеског тиче, Гугл преводилац је сада много бољи те ради детаљног разумевања пасуса по пасуса може бити од користи.
"За часног човека и озбиљног мушкарца,отаџбина је скуп обавеза,и у рату,и у миру-УВЕК !" -Војвода Петар Бојовић
